How to Create Deep, Secure Bonds with Kids, Family & Friends | Attachment Expert Eli Harwood

I feel like the phrase “attachment styles” has become this buzzy thing. Are you securely attached, anxiously attached, avoidantly attached, or some other hybrid? And what does that even mean? I’m pretty attached to dark chocolate, my favorite sweatshirt, and the color teal. Is that what we’re talking about?

Turns out, no. Attachment is about how we connect, or not, with people. Especially our parents, kids, family, and friends. Turns out, we have this primal human need for close emotional connection, or attachment, and the way we do that shapes who we become and how we relate to others from the moment we’re born. And, in no small part, how good our lives are, or are not. 

Yet so many of us struggle to create these nourishing bonds, often carrying patterns of profound insecurity rooted in our earliest experiences. I wanted to understand these, what they are, how they influence us, how we pass them on to our kids and families, and also, whether they can be changed if they’re keeping us from being okay.

So today, I invited Eli Harwood, a therapist and author on a mission to help create a more securely attached world, one relationship at a time to dive deep into the whole attachment shebang. For two decades, Eli has been nerding out on the fascinating research behind attachment theory. In her new book Raising Securely Attached Kids: Using Connection-Focused Parenting to Create Confidence, Empathy, and Resilience, she distills these insights into an actionable guide for parents.

In our conversation, Eli illuminates the transformative power of secure attachment. We explore how to identify and heal insecure patterns, while cultivating the safety and connection children (and all of us) so deeply crave. Whether you’re a parent or not, get ready to rethink what it truly means to form meaningful bonds that allow people to flourish.

You can find Eli at: Website | Instagram | Episode Transcript

Eli Warwood: [00:00:00] That feeling of life is going to be hard, but I’m going to be here. That’s what we get to give our kids. We do not get to give our kids. You will never feel pain. I’m going to protect you from pain. I’m never going to let anything happen to you. God, I would pay money. Big money for that. We don’t get to do that. But we can say, whatever you go through, we go through together. I’m with you.

Jonathan Fields: [00:00:21] So I feel like the phrase attachment styles, it’s become this kind of buzzy thing. Are you securely attached? Are you anxiously attached? Are you avoidantly attached or some other hybrid? What does that even mean? I’m pretty attached to dark chocolate, my favorite sweatshirt. And the color teal. Is that what we’re talking about? Well, it turns out no attachment is about how we connect or not with people, especially those closest to us our parents, kids, family, and friends. Turns out we have this primal human need for close emotional connection or attachment. And the way we do that, it shapes who we become and how we relate to others from the moment we’re born, and in no small part. It shapes how good our lives are or are not, and how they might become. Yet so many of us struggle to create these nourishing bonds, often carrying patterns of profound insecurity, disattachment, or detachment rooted in our earliest experiences. And I wanted to understand what these are, how they influence us, and how we sometimes inadvertently pass them on to our kids and families, and also whether they can be changed if they’re keeping us from being okay. So today I invited Eli Harwood, a therapist and author, on a mission to help create more securely attached people, one relationship at a time, to dive into the whole attachment shebang. For two decades, Eli has been pretty much nerding out on the fascinating research behind the attachment theory in her new book, Raising Securely Attached Kids Using Connection-Focused Parenting to Create Confidence, Empathy, and Resilience. She distills these insights into an actionable guide for parents. But this conversation isn’t just for parents, it’s for everybody in our conversation. Eli really illuminates the transformative power of secure attachment. We explore how to identify and heal insecure patterns, while cultivating the safety and connection that children and all of us, by the way, so deeply crave and need. Whether you’re a parent or not, get ready to rethink what it truly means to form meaningful bonds that allow people to flourish, including you and me. So excited to share this conversation with you! I’m Jonathan Fields and this is Good Life Project.

Jonathan Fields: [00:02:46] So excited to dive in. So I’m a parent. Our daughter is is a young adult at this point, but close enough. So I remember a whole lot. And we’re also in a really interesting transitional window of like, we’re all reimagining our relationships with each other. My wife, my daughter, like me. And it’s sort of like, huh? And also learning, like, where do we lean in? Where do we let go? What? Like how do we stay connected without being overbearing? And it’s such an interesting moment in time. But as we think about and navigate these questions, and I know you speak and write and work with oftentimes families with kids who are at a younger age. But I feel like a lot of these issues, they don’t magically disappear. No, they do not. They follow us. Yes. So the main focus of a lot of your work has been around this concept of attachment. And I think so many of us have heard that word. And I feel like it’s a little bit of like a pop culture y type of word these days and concepts. So I would love to just do a little bit of fleshing out. When we talk about this concept of attachment, what are we actually talking about?

Eli Warwood: [00:03:46] Yes, we’re talking about an instinct. Actually. It’s an instinct in human beings from the day we’re born until the day we die, which is that we form close relationships as a part of our survival, as a part of the way we develop and as a part of how we thrive. So we have lots of studies, and I don’t need to list all of them that have really clarified that, you know, life, it’s our people, right? It’s the close people, the people we identify with. We belong with that we have family with. And so attachment really is this movement towards other people to create close proximity and relationships where we depend on each other, that helps us adapt and survive. You know, it’s been talked about in pop culture in a lot of different ways. And as someone who really is very loyal to data in ways that are sometimes perturbing to me, where I’m like, oh, that’s not really what that means. You know, there was a trend in the 2000s that was like, attachment means you breastfeed your babies and they sleep in your bed. And what was the other? Oh, you wear them. None of those things are harmful to attachment. But attachment is far more nuanced and complex. It’s a social information trading, right? It’s you’re born and you have caregivers, and you have caregivers who are entirely in charge of your survival because you are incapable of surviving. There’s no baby that you know is born, comes out of that birth canal and looks up and goes, mm, I think I could do better. You get what you get. And so the rhythms of relating that are between a child and a caregiver have particular music to them. And we all know this. And as people are listening to this, they’re going to naturally think about the children they have or might want to have and the ways in which they were parented. You know, this is there’s no human that didn’t have an attachment experience. It’s not possible. But what we know from the data is that we have very different experiences in terms of the level of security in our attachment relationships. So we have all of these incredibly nerdy, scientific people who’ve been researching since the 1960s and doing studies that are just so brilliant. So if a kid has a caregiver who responds when they’re in pain, who is warm, who is empathetic, who says, oh, you’re sad, I’m here. I mean, that’s an oversimplification, but man, that’s a powerful thing to hear in life. Oh. You’re sad. I’m here. I mean, how many of us have needed that recently in our lives, right? That experience of having someone who can co-regulate, that’s the core of a secure experience.

Eli Warwood: [00:06:24] It’s someone who is calm enough, confident enough, and connected enough that we don’t have to feel alone when our nervous system is flooded with neurochemicals. Right? And that helps our brain to feel safe, which helps our brain to develop in more high, complex ways. If, on the other hand, you have a caregiver who they had insecure experiences growing up, or maybe traumatic experiences that interrupted their ability to be secure. Maybe they are avoidant of emotions and emotional distress. And so you’re sad as a little person and their responses. You’re going to have to figure that out, kid. We all do. We don’t do that here. We’re not going to do that here. You’re fine. Right? That dismissive tone. Well, that that creates an insecurity because. Oh, I am on my own now. Right. And so I have to figure out how to cope with these floods of emotion and the complex dynamics in my world without support, and I’m too. So we’re looking at the nuances of the ways in which our caregivers related to us as kids, and how we are relating to our kids, and then how those patterns get transferred to all of our other relationships as we develop.

Jonathan Fields: [00:07:36] It’s so powerful. And you describe this notion of the feeling of security, secure attachment, and then what you just described also use the word avoidant. And I’ve heard those two phrases related to like attachment styles. I don’t know if that’s an appropriate way to even address it, but it doesn’t sound like it does.

Eli Warwood: [00:07:53] Well, no, actually it is. It’s confusing. So we have two different bodies of research, and one body of research is from the developmental psychology. And they’re really dedicated to studying the relationship. So the labels that get used are about a relationship dynamic okay. But then the social psychologists have taken some of that and done some different research. That kind of looks at how does the patterns and experiences in childhood come to a culmination into a general style of relating in adulthood? And unfortunately, the bodies of research don’t correlate, which is super annoying, actually. It’s like, oh well, sufferin succotash. That would have been really nice to see that all, but I think they both are valuable bodies of research. My only complaint about the word style is that for many people, what we do in each unique attachment relationship in our life is different. So we can have one pattern with one caregiver or one ex-boyfriend or ex-girlfriend or ex-partner and a different pattern with someone else in our life. And so I think that’s where styles gets a little confusing because it’s like, well, sometimes I do this, but so I don’t know what Harry Potter character I am. You know, I don’t know how to put myself into this matrix. And I would say, well, it might be that you have more complex experiences because you had many caregivers and therefore adapted to different people.

Jonathan Fields: [00:09:11] Yeah, that makes so much sense, you know, and it makes a lot of sense that would be both person and context-dependent.

Eli Warwood: [00:09:16] Yes.

[00:09:17] Because we probably learned to just function through different experiences with different people in different circumstances. And, you know, get reinforcement about what is okay, what’s rewarded, what’s not rewarded, what’s rejected in those contexts, and with the different sort of like categories of people. So it makes sense that we would carry that into adulthood and not just be this monolith of, you know, oh, my style is secure or my style is avoidant, and that just is across all domains. The avoidant part, though, I’m curious also because it would seem to me like from the outside looking in, that avoidance would not be an attachment style or a type of attachment, but would actually be almost like the opposite of attachment.

Eli Warwood: [00:10:00] Oh my gosh, you’re asking the best questions. This is so good because when we say avoidant, we’re actually talking about what does someone do in order to create closeness in moments of tension and emotional tenderness. So when someone’s avoidant, they aren’t avoidant of attachment, they’re avoidant of expressing their emotional tenderness and needs and often noticing or acknowledging other people’s tenderness or needs. So if you’ve developed an avoidant pattern, it’s because you had caregivers or a caregiver who was incapable of being responsive and soothing. So you could have had somebody as a parent who believed that feelings were worthless. And so they dismissed everything you felt. Why would you bring your feelings that would not work and that would actually create more tension in that relationship. So instead, you learn to shut it down, swallow it, pretend it’s not happening. Or you could also have a caregiver who is overly intrusive with their anxiety. So if you had a feeling they freaked the flip out. Oh my gosh, are you okay? Are you sure you’re okay? Do we need to go to the hospital? So they added distress to your distress state and at some point and this is very young so you actually don’t remember these choices. The research says it’s around 12 to 18 months of age that we really establish these patterns.

Eli Warwood: [00:11:22] So it’s pre memory. It’s pre-verbal. But kids adapt that quickly. They go oh when I’m upset my parent either shuts down and disappears emotionally from me or shames me or scolds me, or they get so much more upset that I actually feel worse. So I’m going to maintain closeness to my caregiver by keeping the melty stuff on the inside and not letting them see. And what’s interesting is when we do research on babies who have this avoidant pattern, they don’t show their distress outward. There’s a particular protocol called the Strange Situation, where we basically get babies to feel a little bit worried, and then we look at what they do in response to their caregiver. And the babies who are avoidant don’t actually look worried. They look like they’re just focused on playing with their toys. But we’ve tested their cortisol levels and they have a high stress response. They just don’t show it outwardly. Whereas the secure babies express their distress, they actively seek their caregiver, and then they feel better afterwards because they can trust that their caregiver is able to handle their emotions and help them regulate.

Jonathan Fields: [00:12:32] That is so interesting. So, so, so a child or an adult with an avoidant approach to attachment is very likely actually like they’re avoiding or stifling or withholding because in their mind, that’s actually the way that they maintain or deepen into the relationship.

Eli Warwood: [00:12:51] Closeness.

Jonathan Fields: [00:12:52] Yeah, counterintuitive, but actually really intuitive.

Eli Warwood: [00:12:55] Yes. And the deep message for someone who’s avoidant is my needs are a burden. Emotions and needs are burdensome. And so I’m going to love you by not letting you see all the messiness. And what’s heartbreaking, of course, is that oftentimes partners and sweethearts and friends end up being very angry and dissatisfied at that avoidance because they’re like, stop keeping the good stuff from me. But that’s a hard thing. To convince somebody of your messiness is the good stuff. That’s where your humanness comes through. That’s where intimacy comes through. But man, that’s that was not what that person experienced in childhood. And so they’re really confused about how to build closeness within a secure dynamic. No.

Jonathan Fields: [00:13:37] That makes so much sense. And I think it probably is important to also just to note here that as you described, a lot of these things, these patterns are formed between 12 months and 18 months. So super young, often sort of like pre memory later in life, and that the circumstances that lead to them like this is not a shame and blame thing. This is not like oh, you were trying to do this to me. You were pushing me away. You wanted to me, this is like a parent or a caretaker or whoever it is that is on the patterning side of it is very likely trying to do the best that they know how to do also.

Eli Warwood: [00:14:07] Well, you know, I mean, I look at my generational inheritance and, you know, we could talk about both sides of my family for three days. But on one side in particular, my grandmother’s parents left Russia. They were Germans who lived in Russia under Catherine the Great. They left during the Bolshevik Revolution. They lost contact with all of their family members. As far as they know, everyone was either murdered or sent off to Siberia, never to be heard of again. And they came to the US without knowing a single soul. And they settled in Nebraska and they had to learn. And so, you know, I’m imagining myself as a parent with children taking children from Russia to New York, like across that ocean. Not in modern times. Like just the stress, the fear. You know, at that point, as a parent, you’re in full survival mode at some point. It’s very valuable that your kids are quiet and subservient, because that is how you’re going to get through that journey alive, right? And so I think some of these things go generations behind us, and we don’t always know that, because when there is trauma in a generation, it’s not speakable if it’s not resolved. So the irony is, those of us who have the most generational inheritance usually have the least generational stories in order to understand our inheritance in terms of trauma, the most traumatic. Let me try that again. Those of us who have the most traumatic generational inheritance usually have the least amount of information or stories to understand our inheritance.

Jonathan Fields: [00:15:38] That makes so much sense. You also mentioned, I’m fascinated by this study where you said, looking at a small child, it may be a toddler who has this avoidant patterning. From the outside looking in, they kind of look like the other kid. But then when you actually measure cortisol levels, which we know is a marker of stress or nervous system dysregulation that you see in elevation there, I would imagine if you’re picking up on that as a kid at the youngest age, and then you track that state into adulthood. I mean, that’s kind of devastating.

Eli Warwood: [00:16:12] Yeah, actually, you know, the people who look the most numb or disconnected in their intimate relationships often are the most terrified of the level of grief they hold because it’s a lot of grief to go through decades of your life without feeling truly known and feeling like your needs are a burden to other people. I mean, there’s so much sorrow and loss in that Not experience.

Jonathan Fields: [00:16:36] And I would imagine also beyond the the emotional and psychological effect. I mean, you know, there’s going to be a somatic effect, you know, like now we know that stress leads to inflammation, inflammation leads to disease and all this, you know, the cascade of actually physiological manifestations of this thing that was set in motion at the youngest of age, without any any ill will or bad intention. Yes. When we think about I’m I’m so curious on this, on so many levels now, just as an adult relating to other adults, but also just kind of like stay on on parenting or caretaking. I don’t want to assume anyone listening is a parent, but we probably all have some exposure to kids and some influence on kids, you know, of all different ages. So this, you know, it speaks to everybody really, because nobody we don’t live in a vacuum. So when we think about the way that we might be relating to kids and we start to understand the benefits of trying to create this more secure patterning, what are the things that we would key in on with a child to start to raise an eyebrow and say like, huh? I wonder if there’s something that’s not being expressed externally that this kid is suffering or struggling with that might be related to this attachment patterning.

Eli Warwood: [00:17:49] If children aren’t seeking out caregivers when they are scared, in particular when they are in a state of distress disorientation that makes them feel truly like I don’t know what just happened, or I don’t know what to do, or I’m in danger. If their instinct is not to seek proximity to a caregiver, that’s concerning. So if they’re if they shut down or if they are, you know, dissociative or they blow up, you know, a lot of kids with trauma, when they feel tender or scared, they get angry because that’s been the only protector they’ve had is their anger. So, you know, it comes in a lot of different flavors and sizes. Perfectionism, you know, is a real clue that a child is not getting that type of relational support they need in order to feel secure in the world. What I kind of want to do is ask myself a next question.

[00:18:42] Go ahead. No, by all means, go there.

Eli Warwood: [00:18:46] Okay. My next question for myself is if we recognize or we have a hunch that a child does not have a sense of security relationally in their world, how can we be a protective factor in that child’s life? Because what I want everyone to know is that this is not something that gets shaped when you’re 12 to 18 months of age and then can never change. I can’t imagine myself researching something that hopeless that would just be heartbreaking. It’s absolutely possible to heal attachment wounds, both as adults in ourselves, to put in that work, but also to be someone in a child’s life who changes their understanding of what relationships with supportive people can be. So if you are in relationship with any child, whether that’s your child or you’re a teacher, or you have a niece or nephew. Here are the four things I want you doing. So everybody take notes. It’s not hard to remember one. I want you to light up when they come in the room. I want you to be looking up from your phones. I want you to be demonstratively expressing to that child in some way, physically, so that they can see it and feel it. I’m so glad you’re here. You know, I do this when my kids wake up in the morning. It’s it’s like a little party every time I see them. I mean, they think that, like, they’re waking up is glorious because I think it’s glorious because I’m like, hi, good morning. You know, obviously this changes in different stages. My nine-year-old, it’s a little less of a jumping up and down and big arms out wide. You know, it’s like hi buddy. But that tone and that bond of I’m glad you’re here is like medicine to a child because if I belong somewhere, I’m wanted somewhere. There’s a sense of worthiness, there’s a sense of resilience that develops from it, and there’s a sense of trust in their relationship with us, right? Yeah. I mean, think of the people who light up for you, right? Like, oh, it’s so good.

Jonathan Fields: [00:20:37] Yeah. It’s amazing. So here’s my question. Do you find have you found in clinical practice at all talking to that you would talk to some parents and even kids facing parents and kind of them be like, do I really have to do that? Like, don’t they just know that yes.

Eli Warwood: [00:20:54] It’s far more frequent than you would imagine. Mhm. Or I mean I can do that. But like also like I mean when they come to the door they need to make sure their shoes are in the right place. Like a preoccupation with other things that sort of distills that moment and doesn’t allow deludes not distills. What’s the word I’m looking for?

Jonathan Fields: [00:21:12] Dilutes. Uh

Eli Warwood: [00:21:14] yeah. Dilutes maybe. Dilutes the moment. Okay. Anyway, that dilutes the moment so that, you know, it’s that joy and that magic gets lost. Anxiety on a parent’s part can get in the way. Discomfort. You know, a lot of parents were children who were humiliated for having needs and desires and emotions, and expressing delight is a very emotional process and you look like a goof. No one looks cool while they’re expressing delight. It’s beautiful, but it’s not cool. And so I think if you’ve ever experienced humiliation, that can be a barrier to lighting up around anybody. You know, you’ve learned to kind of John Wayne yourself like, I don’t need you, you don’t need me. So if you reject me, it doesn’t hurt me because I wasn’t trying to connect anyway.

Jonathan Fields: [00:21:59] I wonder how much technology is also playing a part. I mean, because so many people, like, somebody walks in the door, like whether it’s a kid or a partner or a parent or a friend, and your head is just in your device. And like so many times I’ve caught myself like, wait a minute, somebody I truly love and I’m excited to see just walked in and I’m still looking at my device like, that’s actually not okay. And yet that’s become our default state so often.

Eli Warwood: [00:22:23] Yes. I’m so thankful for Jonathan Haidt’s work right now. I don’t know if you’ve come across his work, but I feel like he’s, like, taking care of that. I’m sort of like, okay, Jonathan, you got this, like, address. This whole problem we have, let’s all work on it. I consciously have made a commitment to myself that during times of reunion where my children and I are coming back together after having not seen each other and my partner and my sweetheart and really, anyone I’m trying to have a close connection with. It’s phones down, faces up for me. That’s my role. Phone down, faces up. And so if I know my kids are coming home soon, I’m getting off my phone ahead of time and entering that state of presence and availability. And does that happen every single time? No, but that’s the pattern. And this is another important thing to know about attachment. It is not about getting it right. We have longitudinal studies that show, and it’s far more important to be repairing and apologizing and coming back around when things are off course than it is to be perfect at this, and that a secure relationship is in sync and connected about 30 to 50% of the time. So you know, that’s an F in every other subject in life. And thank goodness we’re being graded on a on a curve. So that’s a pass. That’s all I’m trying to do right.

Jonathan Fields: [00:23:34] And it takes the pressure off also because like if you think I have to be 100% perfect about this all the time, it becomes like then you just start shaming and blaming yourself because there’s no possible way to do that. We’re humans also. Yes. And we’ll be right back after a word from our sponsors. So that was the first item. Walk me through the other three here. Okay.

Eli Warwood: [00:23:56] So number two we’re going to show up for these two very important things. We’re going to show up for the tender moments. So when our kids are sad, scared, overwhelmed, ashamed like they’re in that soggy state or they’re full of a sense of fear or overwhelm, we’re going to show up. And showing up does not mean rescuing them. It just means, oh, I see what you’re feeling. I’m taking a sip of it so that I can relate to what you’re feeling. And I’m offering you presence. And sometimes that presence is 30s and they feel better. And sometimes it’s hours or seasons, but we show up for it. I’m here. How can I support you? I see this in you. I know this in me. You’re not alone. And their triumphant moments, you know when they’re little and they want to show you the roly-poly that they found and probably killed. You know, you’re like, oh, wow, that’s so exciting. Or when they’re older and they like, ask somebody to prom and they said yes, or they’ve, you know, overcome, you know, a struggle in their life. I mean, thinking about our kids don’t stop being our kids just because they turn 18, right? Like they’re 35 and they get sober, like show up for those triumphant moments, not just a little bit like with emotion and with presence. Because when we feel celebrated by people, that is also medicine for us.

Jonathan Fields: [00:25:09] Let me ask you a question about the first part of that showing up for them during moments of challenge or struggle or hardship. I would imagine that not infrequently, a parent is going to have a kid that at some point experiences something really tough that that parent has experienced and developed patterning around, and it almost has this vicarious trauma, seeing their kid go through something that is close enough in a circumstance level so that it triggers the same thing in them. How do you show up when you’re experiencing this vicarious trauma? At the same time that, you know, this kid you love is experiencing their version of the very same thing, and you want to feel resourced and you want to show up and you want to be present for them. How do we do that when you’re going through like you’re literally re-experiencing the same thing yourself in that moment?

Eli Warwood: [00:25:59] I love this question. I love your questions. You reach for your people. So we as relational creatures need to be co-regulated also. So if my stuff is active and I can feel it and I’m panicking, I need to have people in my world that I can call up and and really vulnerably say like, this is what’s happening in my brain right now, and I’m pretty convinced that this means x, Y, or z. This means I failed, or this means my child is never going to function in the world. Or this, you know, whatever catastrophic, overwhelming meaning is filling our bodies as a result of our trauma, to get support from other people and allow them to throw us life rafts and to grab Ahold of them, you know, to hear someone else say, like, I don’t think that this is what that means. Or like, gosh, I think maybe it was unrealistic to think that you could prevent that from ever happening to your child. I think it’s normal. And I think the difference is, is that you went through that without any support, and your kid’s going to go through this with you by their side. And it’s not the same thing, you know, helping to bring that perspective in and taking care of that. That’s obviously easier said than done, you know, especially if you have an avoidant pattern or if you’re someone that has more of a we call it resistant in the developmental research, but in the kind of social research we call it anxious pattern, all insecure patterns are anxious. So that’s one of the reasons I like the developmental research better, because I’m like, the avoidant folks are anxious, they just aren’t showing you. But what we call an anxious pattern, where someone is preoccupied with others and they struggle to settle and soothe, you know, that kind of stuff. So if you are in your stuff, you need people to help you edit that story, regulate your body, and separate the past from the present.

Jonathan Fields: [00:27:43] Yeah. Which is also just a reminder that these patterns may have been installed in us in the earliest days. But until and unless we do something to process them, to heal them, to shift them to something more constructive and healthy for us, they’re not going to change on their own.

Eli Warwood: [00:27:59] No, no. Wouldn’t that be so nice? I’m all about research. If someone can come up with something, I’m all in my first book. I made it as a guided journal because that was the exact thing I know people need. And I know it’s hard to find the right therapist or even afford therapy to be able to do that work, but the data says one of the most important things we can do for our kids is reflect on our attachment experiences, is to take the time and answer the questions. What was affection like in your family? How did your parents respond to these various emotions? What happened when you got angry? You know? What was the message around your sexual development? I mean, there’s all sorts of layers to this. And so when we go back and we reflect, that allows us to a little bit separate the past from the present. If we don’t reflect the past comes up in feeling states. And then sometimes you’re freaking out about your child in a way that doesn’t really match the moment, and you can’t stop the train because it left the station without your permission. And then you have to kind of figure out how to repair all that. So I think as much as we can actively acknowledge what was my attachment Heritance did I get an inheritance that was secure or insecure, and if it was insecure, how did I cope with that? What were the patterns I developed to cope? And now how can I work on learning more secure patterns?

Jonathan Fields: [00:29:20] Yeah. No, that makes so much sense. Take me into the third element here. Okay.

Eli Warwood: [00:29:25] Listen up. So when we take the time to truly hear children. And this is not just, you know, the long winded story about how one time this happened and that happened, and you’re going land the plane. What are we talking about here? You know, but it’s it’s.

Jonathan Fields: [00:29:43] No parent has ever felt that ever, by the way. It’s like, can we just get there already?

Eli Warwood: [00:29:50] Like dinner’s about to boil over. Like yep yep yep. And and then the koala bear. Okay okay okay. No, the things they’re telling us in their patterns, like what do they love? Listening to their rhythms and their movements and their words so that they are known by us. You know, I think of each of my kids as, as a PhD that I’m working on and I’m probably never going to finish, which I think happens to a lot of people who do PhDs. I’m going to keep trying to finish these PhDs by constantly studying and paying attention and hearing them both verbally, hearing what they have to say, and also non-verbally. What is it that moves them? Scares them, overwhelms them, lights them up.

Jonathan Fields: [00:30:31] It goes back to also I mean all this is so it’s they’re like nuanced variations of kind of the same thing, which is like being present.

Eli Warwood: [00:30:39] Yes. You know, I think I made these four categories up in this particular way because it is hard to be present as a modern parent. And so it’s like I need those like guidelines to hang on to and be like, don’t forget to light up. Don’t forget to show up. Don’t forget to listen up. And the last one is makeup. Don’t forget to be the leader of repair like we get off tracks. My son’s favorite way to label my moodiness, as he calls it harsh. Mom. He’s like harsh mom’s back. Like, oh, yeah, I mean, it’s really she’s stressed mom, but yes, yes, yes, that’s right. You’re seeing something. You’re not crazy that’s happening. And it’s like, how can I acknowledge that enough in myself and with him that we can get back into a rhythm of generosity, of support, of calmness? Right. What needs to happen in there? So that process, as a parent of I don’t expect myself to be a good parent. I’m trying to be a good enough parent. That’s my only goal. And I guarantee that when my kids get older, they’re going to have feedback for me. I hope they do, because I hope they get the opportunity to improve on their experience.

Eli Warwood: [00:31:48] That’s part of the gift of humanity, is we keep trying to improve the situation that we’re in. And so I don’t want to get defensive. I want to go, well, I was good mom or I was trying so hard, I want to go, oh yeah, I can see how that wasn’t your favorite thing that I, you know, I have this funny habit where if I’m sitting with my kids and they don’t have their shoes on, I always check if their toenails need to get clipped. It’s like some neurotic impulse in me. It drives them nuts and I’m like, really trying to work on it. It’s like because usually it’s they’ve put their legs up on my lap. It’s like a moment of connection. And my, my little, you know, OCD brain is like, is this the moment? Should I go get the clippers? Should we do it right now? You know, I think that that feedback loop that our kids have for us where they let us know like mom, dad, parent, you’re missing it. Don’t miss.

Jonathan Fields: [00:32:37] It. I would imagine they’re sending the signals all day, every day. And it’s like, that’s part of our work, right? Is to actually attune to it, to be attentive, to see it. And modern-day life. I mean, as you said earlier, that’s hard. It’s like you open your eyes and the spin cycle starts and the distractions start. And I feel like so many people feel that they’re just so pulled in so many different directions and sometimes a lot of good things, but still a lot of different directions simultaneously. And there’s they’re trying to be there and be present. It’s kind of why I like, like these four things. Rather than just saying be present. It’s like, here are four specific ways to be there to do this. You know, related to that last point, though, this sort of like the coming back and sort of like the corrective, you know, like part of this, like, oh, I messed up or like I kind of blew up or I said this thing and I wonder if what goes through some people’s heads is okay. So I’m, I’m the parent. You’re the kid. I’m supposed to be the, quote, authority figure here, you know, and which is a a dominance-oriented stance. But I feel like probably a lot of folks have come up in a way where they feel like that is the right way to actually be a parent. You know, like you are supposed to come at this from a place of, I know the thing. Like I get to control and I get to exert some authority and dominance. Your work basically says, no, actually, that’s a pretty major disservice to both of you.

Eli Warwood: [00:34:02] Yes, I think people really confuse that idea that we have to exert authority when we actually just are the authority like that baby comes out and there’s no question who’s in charge or who’s responsible. And I think the fear that if our children have opinions or they push back on things, that means somehow we’ve lost control, or if they’re struggling that we need to sort of go in with that kind of intense show of authority and dominance. It actually just erodes trust in that relationship. But I do want to say that the group of people that really is like, no, no, no, we have to do this usually sees the other side of that spectrum as problematic, and they’re not wrong. The other side of the spectrum is also problematic if we allow our children to guide our decisions, meaning, hey, we have some structure, but my child’s upset about it and doesn’t like it. So I changed the structure, you know, and we we give them the position of dominance and authority. And we don’t hold to the guidelines and we don’t ask them to grow and we don’t allow them to experience Discomfort and suffering. So if we go from dominant side to the opposite end to being very permissive, that’s also a problem for secure attachment. Our kids need us to be both soft and sturdy, so they need us to care about what’s happening for them and to have really clear ideas about what we want them to learn and where we’re helping them grow and be guided. And I have a colleague who runs the Institute for parenting and she says, you know, open hearts, sturdy or strong spines.

Eli Warwood: [00:35:37] And I love that. It’s like and the presence we want to bring is I got you and I got you is also we are going to go to bed tonight. I understand you don’t want to go to bed sometimes. I don’t want to go to bed. But we take good care of our bodies by making sure our bodies get sleep. So bed. I don’t want to, I know, or. Yeah, I understand that your other friends parents are saying that you can spend the night at the house where there are no parents, but at 13, that’s just not something I’m comfortable with. And I understand you’re going to be mad and upset, and it’s going to make you feel like you’re left out. But those are things that are less significant to me than the risk of something really awful happening at this stage in your development. So you can’t go, right. Like, I care about what you’re feeling and I’m setting limits. It doesn’t have to be. How dare you question me? You know, that aggressive, kind of threatening, punishment-based way of relating? Like it’s just not necessary if you are sturdy in what you’re doing and you’ve created and cultivated the kind of connection with your child that has led them to feel trust in you. It doesn’t mean they’re going to obey you all the time, but they will generally come back to you as a place and source of support and guidance. And that’s what we want to be seeing over time.

Jonathan Fields: [00:36:49] Yeah, that makes so much sense to me. You’re kind of bringing in speaking. It sounds like a bit to boundaries as well in the notion of boundaries versus more of like a punishment orientation. Like, let’s establish this. Acknowledge, like, I see you, I hear you, I understand you and like what you’re feeling is valid. And at the same time. Here’s the decision that I’m making and here’s why. And this is kind of like, this is why we’re going to move forward this way. And I get that you’re not going to be happy about it. And that sort of is what it is.

Eli Warwood: [00:37:17] And we can be creative in that. You know, I think sometimes we feel like we have to say it. They have to receive it. And then if we haven’t that like somehow the system is broken. It’s like, well, sometimes our kids just aren’t getting it or there’s some element we’re not getting, you know, like, oh, wait, what happened on Tuesday? Carla told you she thought you were a prude. And so now not going to this party is feeling like it’s proving the point. You know, like, oh my gosh, let’s talk more about what happened and how we can get through all of this. So it’s it’s, you know, we can hold gently within our heart. Our children are doing the best they can with what they have and that that best can be really desperate responses to our boundaries. And I think I know that this is an important boundary. And this also goes back to your other question of like, what do we do when this is getting hard or triggered. It’s like, please find people you respect to talk through these things with, because sometimes we’re stuck on something and someone goes, well, so why not blah blah blah. And we start explaining it and we realize like, oh, I’m really in a real serious anxiety state, okay. And they might have another solution or idea of what you could do. And we are not meant to do this in isolation. This is an unbelievably complex, messy developmental process for us as parents. We need a lot of people around us, helping us through each nuanced situation that we’re facing with our kids.

Jonathan Fields: [00:38:43] Yeah, because especially if you’ve arrived as an adult and then have the gift of being a parent or a caretaker, and but you are carrying capital T trauma with you, and you’re you still exist in a state of hypervigilance and anxiety. You know, then when that kid comes to you with and it’s a very different kid with a very different sensibility and maybe, maybe more grounded and actually connected to like what’s real than you are in this moment. But you have this impulse to keep them safe. And like that impulse is based on your stuff. I love the fact that you’re like, you got to talk to other people too, because these boundaries, these sort of like guidelines that you feel are completely rational. Maybe it makes sense to revisit them sometimes.

Eli Warwood: [00:39:24] Yeah, sometimes it does. Or or you need more creative communication tools. You know, like I have a kid who has sensory processing disorder and probably will get diagnosed ADHD at some point in their journey. And I have a group of people, I have a language person and an OT person, you know, who’s there just helping me brainstorm. I’m going, okay, so we need to do a checklist. I’m going to make it visual. Like what do you think the order should be? How can we have this work? Because even though I have studied the baloney out of all of this stuff, when it comes to my kid, I get overwhelmed because she’s my lovebug and I don’t want her to, you know, struggle. And I don’t want us to be at odds. And sometimes we were just at odds at a volume that I’m like, mhm. We need some extra resource around us. And you know, that might be professionals, that might be friends, that might be a partner. But like, how can I find other people to help me get creative around whatever this thing is. I might know my child needs to learn this. Like my child needs to learn to stop biting others in anger. Okay, check. That’s a that’s something they need to learn. But who can help me do that? You know, or help me settle up for another 6 to 7 months of it because they’re just developmentally not there yet. You know, we need people. I mean, obviously, can I beat that dead horse anymore? I’m just going to keep doing it.

Jonathan Fields: [00:40:47] And we need people not just for this, but we need people for everything. And we’ll be right back. After a word from our sponsors. You shared. I don’t know, it was a while back on Instagram, this post that kind of caught me in my throat, which I just thought was so beautiful. And it was five powerful phrases to say to your children or that you said, I say to my children, can I share those with you? And then just have you respond to each one of them?

Eli Warwood: [00:41:11] Yes, I’m going to cry while you do because they’re like so powerful to me. But yes, please.

Jonathan Fields: [00:41:14] So the phrase to say to your children, there is not a single thing in life that we can’t figure out together.

Eli Warwood: [00:41:21] Amen. That feeling of life is going to be hard, but I’m going to be here. That’s what we get to give our kids. We do not get to give our kids. You will never feel pain. I’m going to protect you from pain. I’m never going to let anything happen to you. God, I would pay money. Big money for that. We don’t get to do that. But we can say, whatever you go through, we go through together. I’m with you.

Jonathan Fields: [00:41:42] You can ask or tell me anything. Literally. I will always be a safe place for the weird, scary or awkward conversations.

Eli Warwood: [00:41:51] Mr. Rogers, one of my personal heroes and childhood mentors. Never in person, but man, that man mentored me as a as a little person watching his show. He says what is mentionable is manageable. And I think I’ve seen so many people as adults process the things they didn’t feel they could say to their caregivers because it would have been uncomfortable or off limits or, you know, I think it’s so important. I mean, I’ve also worked with so many survivors of sexual abuse who did not share because they didn’t feel like that permission was really there. Like, we just don’t talk about those things and we don’t say those words and we don’t do the stuff. And I just really want my kids to always know, like, it might be big and messy and awkward and I can handle it.

Jonathan Fields: [00:42:36] The next one you shared was, it’s not your job to make me happy. It’s your job to figure out who you are and be true to that.

Eli Warwood: [00:42:44] Mm. This is really a gift from my mom. My mom is the first cycle breaker in my family. And when I was nine years old, she was struggling with severe PTSD, depression, and at the moment that in that time period was feeling suicidal, and instead of ending her life, she did the very, very hard thing of checking herself into a psychiatric hospital. And it was this U-turn in her life and in our lives, and she really started doing the work to process what her childhood had been, who her parents had been to her. Some of the really scary things, especially that had happened at the hands of her dad and, I don’t know, my mom’s kind of just this amazing person. But so she at some point got really clear that she didn’t want us to ever feel like we owed her anything. Right. And I think there was something in her that had always felt like it was her job to make everybody else happy, right? That’s what her trauma had said. And so she really was clear with us, like my my wellness, my happiness is my job. And so and taking care of you is also my job. And if you’re feeling some certain way about me, that’s my job to deal with that. That’s not your job to deal with that, right? And if I’m feeling some certain way with you, like there was a real sense of permission to just be ourselves and and to not have to live in the trauma state that she had lived in, where her whole world had to be oriented around keeping her dad happy and keeping her mom feeling loved. And I think those two burdens really got in the way of her life. I sometimes think, like, what would she have done? I mean, she’s smart as a whip. What would have happened in her life had she felt safe in the world? I don’t know, but she gave us that gift and so I’m running with it.

Jonathan Fields: [00:44:35] I mean, so powerful. And the last part of that phrase, also, I don’t, because there’s sort of like a second sentiment in there, which is it’s your job to figure out who you are and be true to that, which is really powerful permission giving, because I think a lot of people don’t ever feel that. They often feel it’s my job to live up to the expectations of my parents, my family, culture and my community.

Eli Warwood: [00:45:01] But I think that’s because a parent has mistakenly believed it was their job to create a path for their child, and that that loving children means prescribing for them a certain way, or a certain job or a certain belief system. Right. And so it’s like, if I love my kids, I’m going to make sure that they x, y, or Z, as opposed to what a real secure mindset is, which is my job is to be here in support of my children as they discover what paths they belong on. And then I actually don’t get to make those calls. I don’t really want to make those calls. What if those paths turn out to be terrible? I don’t want to be responsible for that. You know, like, yeah, I just think that’s something my mom did really beautifully. I really have always had permission to do what it was that felt right to follow passions and desire.

Jonathan Fields: [00:45:52] And the fourth phrase that you shared is if you tell me that someone is hurting you or scaring you, I will always believe you, no matter who it is.

Eli Warwood: [00:45:59] And that one, that one comes from probably like a work trauma over the years for me, of just bearing witness to the number of people who have said to their parents, this is happening, someone’s doing this or someone’s doing that, and who were just given either no response and let’s just this goes away or who are basically told, I think you might be overreacting or you might be making that up, or are you sure that happened? Or, you know, I think there is pain in being harmed outside of our family. There’s pain in that. But it is not nearly as excruciating as the pain of being harmed outside of our family and not believed within our family.

Jonathan Fields: [00:46:37] Yeah, it’s a level of gaslighting from the people who you want to be seen most by that which just piles on. Yes, the suffering there. The final phrase, you don’t owe me anything. I brought you into this world, and the joy of being your parent has given me more than I could ever have imagined.

Eli Warwood: [00:46:55] So this. This is what my mother said to me when I was graduating eighth grade. We went to Healthy Habits salad bar, which I don’t think exists anymore, probably for like sanitary reasons. She had a little necklace for me and it had my favorite flower on it, and she had this whole talk ready for me. And it’s interesting because I’m like eighth grade, you know, I’m like 13. I’m not that old. But I think for her, she wanted to make sure that as early as possible, she planted freedom in me and the obligation she had felt with her caregivers and her family that had felt burdensome to her. She didn’t want me to carry those burdens. And ironically, of course, like the second my mom gets into some, you know, mind or physical state where she can’t take care of herself, I am going to be taking care of her, you know, because there’s this freedom in our connection. I’ve never felt obligated, and that just makes me want to do it more. She actually had a, um. Oh, shoot. I’m gonna forget the technical term, but she had a one-day memory lapse. It’s like this weird thing that can happen occasionally where you lose all your short-term memory. She’s in the house, and all of a sudden she looked around and she didn’t know where she was. She didn’t know what was happening.

Eli Warwood: [00:48:04] My stepfather, who was blind, called me like, this is what’s happening. What do I do? I was like, call the ambulance. You know, I’m immediately at the hospital and I’m I’m like, you know, so full of all the feelings, thinking like, does she have a stroke? What does this mean? Like, have we lost her? You know, and, you know, I just sat there in the hospital with her and held her hand and just kind of repeated the questions she kept asking because she couldn’t keep short-term memory. So she’d go, Where’s Baba? And I’d go, he’s in the waiting room with with Scott. And she’d go, oh, Scott’s here. And I’d be like, yeah. And then two minutes later, Where’s Baba? And it was this strange flash forward, I hope we don’t do this for the reals for a very, very long time. But no part of me wanted to be anywhere but in that room taking care of her because she’s done that for me. There’s something about when we offer our children the freedom to go live their own lives, that that the gift is natural to return. You know, it’s like, I’m sure there will be hard times, but man, it will be an honor to care for her because she has made it an honor to care for me. And I want my kids to have the same.

Jonathan Fields: [00:49:09] Yeah. Which also, I mean, it kind of sets up us zooming up a little bit in the conversation, like coming full circle a little bit. Also, you know, like when you’re able to actually develop this level of connection, this type of connection, this sense of secure attachment. And as your kid grows up, or maybe you’re maybe you’re even a teacher who just develops like just a really deep connection with a student, whoever you may be. Yes. You know, like, this applies to just all sorts of different relationships. And then, you know, like that kid reaches adulthood and then that kid, it’s time for them to go off and start really creating their own life. It’s interesting because on the one hand, you’re like, ah, I hit my 30 to 50%. Like, they’re rock solid, they’re confident, they’re loved. They know that they’re good. They can express their emotions. They know how to feel safe and ask for what they need. And then you’re like, what? They don’t need me now.

Eli Warwood: [00:50:01] It’s a tremendous identity shift for us. It takes up so much meaning space in our lives. Like there’s nothing that is more meaningful than the care we give to children. Really? Truly. And so when their need for us shifts, I mean, we’ve done our job well. Like, that’s actually one of the goals. And we have to then figure out how now to shift the way we find meaning in our world. Because I do see a lot of parents just keep trying to play that role, and it ends up isolating them in their relationship with their adult children because they’re all children are like, get off my back. I’m not a kid anymore. You know, I can’t tell you how many times I’ve heard that in therapy. Like, I’m not a kid anymore. And why is that happening? Well, it’s happening because a parent is is not facing the grief of the shift of this sacred role that we play for a short period of time in our child’s life. I have another post where I talk about how I want to talk to my children once they pick a partner, because I think it’s so important that we pass the baton of that centrality of our role in their life to their sweethearts and to their besties, to whoever they choose to kind of partner with in life. And that we kind of say, like, I got my turn. I loved my turn. What a gift it was.

Eli Warwood: [00:51:19] I’m look at me, I’m crying, and I know my kids are. My oldest kid is only nine years old. So anyway, this is also slightly ridiculous, but, you know, like, this is the greatest honor of my life. And now it’s your turn to do this with other people. I will always be here. You know, you want to come home for Thanksgiving? Of course. Come home. You want to talk to me about something you’re struggling with? Of course. But I don’t need you to need me because that’s a burden you don’t need. So I’m going to I don’t know I my plan is gardening. I’m just going to become like an obsessive gardener, you know, like I can’t grow my children anymore. So I’m going to grow a lot of tomatoes. Um, but we we honor that relationship. The last chapter of my new book is called When Letting Go Is Staying Close. And it’s like it really is a paradigm shift of like, oh, now if I hold too tight, it will actually push them away. So we have to find ways to say, you go and you be free and I’m going to miss you, and I’m going to be a little bit jealous that your roommate knows more about what happened in your classes today than I do, but it’s okay, because there are other places for me to grow things, and I will figure that out, you know, next round of my life.

Jonathan Fields: [00:52:32] Yeah. And I as shared when we started this conversation, like my wife and I are in this moment right now as we have this conversation. So it’s interesting to sort of like hear your perspective and and I’m nodding along and I’m like, this makes perfect sense. And it’s still really hard.

Eli Warwood: [00:52:49] Yeah. It doesn’t change how hard it is. Yeah. Like you can the knowing I mean, I think of that when, like when, when people haven’t had kids, you know, and they’re like getting ready, they’re pregnant or whatever. And I think like, there’s no way for me to describe to you what you’re about to go through, and I can give you information that will at least help you anticipate some of it. But at the end of the day, when you’re in it, it’s like, Holy Moses, this is way harder and more complicated than I could have ever imagined, and also more beautiful. Like, I’m sure that what you feel when you see her living her best life.

Jonathan Fields: [00:53:22] Oh it’s amazing.

Eli Warwood: [00:53:23] It’s a joy you can’t even imagine. I’m sure I cannot imagine it. No, there’s a.

Jonathan Fields: [00:53:27] Buddhist phrase and also a Yiddish phrase. I kind of mean the same thing in Buddhism. One of the four immeasurables translates roughly to appreciative joy, and that the Yiddish phrase for that is naches, which is effectively it’s it’s the joy that you feel when you love somebody so unconditionally and you see them flourish, that you feel their experience as your own.

Eli Warwood: [00:53:46] I’m crying again.

Jonathan Fields: [00:53:48] It’s like on the one hand, you’re in this and it’s like your heart is breaking while it’s exploding open with joy. And it’s such. It’s such an amazing and strange and beautiful experience.

Eli Warwood: [00:54:00] You know, it’s funny, I think when your kids are little, your brain is breaking while your heart is exploding with joy. And then they leave and your heart is breaking.

Jonathan Fields: [00:54:12] Just lowers down in your body as the years goes. Yeah.

Eli Warwood: [00:54:15] Where the breaking happens.

Jonathan Fields: [00:54:16] Exactly, exactly. It feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well in this conversation. So in this container of Good Life Project., if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up.

Eli Warwood: [00:54:28] To live a good life? Show up as much as you can as your true authentic self with the people who have the ability to see you, know you and appreciate you and become the kind of person who can see, know and appreciate others so that your life is filled with deep and meaningful relationships.

Jonathan Fields: [00:54:54] Mm. Thank you. Hey, before you leave, if you loved this episode, Safe bet, you’ll also love the conversation we had with Doctor Shefali about raising kids. You’ll find a link to that episode in the show notes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers Lindsey Fox and me, Jonathan Fields. Editing help by Alejandro Ramirez. Kristoffer Carter crafted our theme music and special thanks to Shelley Adelle for her research on this episode. And of course, if you haven’t already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project. in your favorite listening app. And if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring or valuable, and chances are you did. Since you’re still listening here, would you do me a personal favor? A seven-second favor and share it. Maybe on social or by text or by email. Even just with one person. Just copy the link from the app you’re using and tell those you know, those you love, those you want to help navigate this thing called life a little better so we can all do it better together with more ease and more joy. Tell them to listen, then even invite them to talk about what you’ve both discovered. Because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action, that’s how we all come alive together. Until next time, I’m Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.

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